We’ll then I think we should direct the focus on figuring out a system that allows businesses to buy at fixed price, while not gutting the incentives for everyone else and crushing stage one investors. In this specific proposal thread, the system would allow price to travel upwards creating much better incentives. So one obvious option I mentioned is allowing businesses to buy direct at 1.1 even if market price is higher. Basically doing businesses deals OTC at fixed price. I think there might be even more options especially if the goal is .9-1.1 by stage 3 and not stage 2. If we have a 5 year window to get this stability on the top end as well as the low end then this can be solved with an algorithm as proposed above.
This is how I assume the system is defined to work here - please let me know if I am off:
Pmin = R/M
Pmax = f(random P)>Pmin
Meaning that the ECA could step in and fulfil any XRD buy order at any price greater than Pmin, but will only buy back XRD at Pmin.
As a trader:
Place and cancel random buy orders (XRI for XRD) just above Pmin. Put enough in, the ECA will print me new Rads at some price just above Pmin.
Next, I would then place those XRD for sale at just above where I am exercising my cancel and replace buy order system, say at Pmin + 10%
The system cannot buy back the Rads off me because it is above Pmin. Any user who doesn’t want to wait for their order to be fulfilled (either by the system, or by another user), will just buy my Rads for sale at Pmin + 10%.
I know this is a similar shape of problem to the static Pmax problem, but the foreseeable issue here is that you will get people gaming Pmax down as low as possible here, meaning the Pmax-Pmin margin becomes much much lower, and so to (likely) the market price of the Rad.
I am sure some enterprising business would arb the crap out of that, and you would just have the practical market peak price tend towards 1.1, even if it wasn’t directly enforced by the ECA.
Even if that didn’t happen, that sounds like giving favourable rights to one group over another. It also sounds like every business that wanted to use the Radix network would need to form a relationship with the foundation, which doesn’t seem scalable, practical, fair or fail safe.
Apologies @tesslerc - re-reading your post, the Pmin is also a random function related to volume.
So; probably a good idea to outline why Pmin is an important feature for the network (outside of holders) - it’s a helps guarantee a minimum level of service from the Node Runners themselves - e.g. as a organisation thinking about providing computing resource to the network, I would like to know what the minimum revenue I can expect from providing that computing resource.
Pmin helps create the other side of this equation. Thus:
Pmax = gives people predictable cost of using the network
Pmin = gives people predictable revenue from providing service to the network
Now, obviously the price can move between those two boundaries, but at least Node Runners always know what the worse off they can be, given a certain earning potential of Rads into the future, and developers/companies know what the most expensive the Rad network will be for them to use.
I don’t think that using a random function for Pmin is as bad for Node Runners; so this is not so much a criticism of that, just an extra reason why Pmin is important.
On a wider discussion of a random function Pmin, you have a similar issue of gameability issue:
As a trader, I will;
- Buy up anything 10% below Pmin and lower
- Repeatedly put a sell order for XRD just below Pmin until the system fulfils me + take the 10%
Of course, this is assuming that Pmin converges on R/M (which I assume it does, such that when M=0, R=0)
- I wrote that Pmin can either be random or fixed. Regarding gameability of Pmin, you want to sell at Pmin but people are trying to sell at $0.01 so it won’t get matched - see explanation below.
- The system doesn’t intercept any order above Pmin. It intercepts any buy order at or above the maximal buy order. You can’t set buy order at Pmin if people are trying to buy at $5 and expect the system to fulfill it. Exactly as any trader selling XRD for Fiat tokens can’t fulfil an order at Pmin when there are orders at $5 - you first handle the highest gains then start going down.
Bottom line, the system should be treated as any other trader. It can’t match trades which are illogical to batch, e.g., a buy order below the maximal value someone is currently willing to pay.
The bottom line is that pmax is the real issue here. With a hard 1.1 top there simply is too much risk vs too little potential reward to use the system. We simply cannot sell Rad at $1 and create a ceiling only 10% higher, with a bottom 90% lower.
One of the primary goals in stages 1 and 2 is to increase Pmin up to 0.9. Tesslerc’s approach will work toward this goal by having the ECA always sell above Pmin, and always buy at Pmin (sell high, buy low). Each sale is guaranteed to put upward pressure on Pmin.
@Piers, if you’re concerned about traders gaming the system to drive the market price down, then have the ECA always sell for at least Pmin + N (maybe 10% above Pmin for example). This will ensure that even the traders who are gaming the system are actually pushing Pmin up over time. The more they trade, the faster Pmin increases.
In addition, as we’ve said, the ECA can place its sell order at or above the current highest bid order and below the lowest ask. It will act a bit like a market maker, keeping the market liquid.
To address businesses who want a ‘new’ coin, if an order comes in at a certain level above Pmin (e.g. Pmin + 0.2), then the ECA could always fill that order. This will allow businesses, or someone who just wants Radix now, to buy as much as they want at a reasonable price above Pmin without having to wait for a seller.
I do agree that Pmin should always be fixed at R/M to provide a stable floor.
I believe that this approach will increase Pmin much more quickly than only having the ECA sell at Pmax because it takes advantage of the trading while it’s at levels between Pmin and Pmax. It even works if the trading stays between Pmin and Pmax all of the time.
I think this idea, and this thread are converging:
I think the idea of a soft Pmax might be workable, but not as probabilistic function; would need to be volume/price driven so that Pmax is known and can be used by businesses, but does not prevent the price itself from moving according to the market needs over time.
Have a look at the other thread and jump in if you want.
The only issue you are describing is an illiquid market in which there are no sellers.
So long as there are sellers the businesses can buy at the minimal sale price regardless of the existence of an economic model.
Bottom line is - you can’t have a “known” Pmax value and allow it to move these two facts are negating one another. And if it is known, it can/will be gamed.
I feel like we are pushing together micro and macro economics here. Yes, on a day view, it is possible that a known Pmax will mean that a local maxima just below the Pmax is reached but never exceeded. However, if the net demand for Rads is positive then that threshold will be broken as the sellers do not have an infinite supply.
This then comes back to the velocity of Rads within the system, and if people are being encouraged to hold Rads as a predictable SoV or not. Making something into a SoV is really the only reliable way to assure long term holding and decreased velocity within the system.
As I mentioned in another thread, we need to distinguish our terminology to avoid confusion.
Pmax should be a “hard” limit and in any given period its exact value is known. Perhaps it is always 1.1 * XRI. Or if we do allow it to move, then it should still be easily calculated. For example, in any given period it could be Pmin + 0.2. As @Piers pointed out, this allows businesses to easily calculate their maximum costs of buying XRD.
Psell – But for these kinds of discussions, we also need a term that describes a more volatile price at which the ECA can make sales. I’m suggesting “Psell”. This value can change within a given period based on the algorithm we choose. Perhaps it’s based on volume/price, or a probabilistic function as Tesslerc suggested, or some other approach.
Psell will never exceed Pmax.
Having the two terms will avoid confusion and allow us to clearly discuss the best approach for the ECA to be successful.
You know what also enables business to easily calculate the buy value? Fiat tokens
It feels like the current model is one compromise after another, all in order to provide assurances for businesses, while ignoring all other users in the system.
“If net demand for Rads is positive…as sellers do not have an infinite supply.” I keep seeing this reiterated over and over. The demand you are describing to get to stage 3 is businesses or individuals buying over $1,000,000,000 Rad at $1.1.
If that does not happen, the current system asks people to buy Rads at $1 in stage one, with a 10% max upside and 90-99% potential downside beginning in stage 2.
How is this a justifiable risk/reward scenario? The fact that people who buy at $1 may make 10-20% of stage 1 interest before stage 2 launches if literally tens of millions get invested AFTER they invest? Does that really lower the risk/reward to justifiable levels?
Would you in good faith recommend such an investment to your friends and family?